Two ferry announcements today – one in relation to Hobsonville and one in relation to Beach Haven. Both of these are linked as I think the same boat will end up serving both wharves (as they’re so close to each other). First, Hobsonville:
Auckland Transport and Hobsonville Land Company have agreed joint funding for construction of a new wharf at Hobsonville Point, enabling ferry services between the Point and downtown Auckland to begin early in the new year.
Auckland Transport is funding 80 percent of the $2.85 million ferry terminal project, with the remainder funded by development partner Hobsonville Land Company.
Auckland Transport chief executive Dr David Warburton said the agreement would see the two organisations work in partnership to deliver a brand new ferry service between downtown Auckland and Hobsonville Point.
“Hobsonville Point’s potential for coastal development, as well as for public spaces, parks and The Landing itself makes it an important point on our Waitemata Harbour ferry network,” said Dr Warburton.
Hobsonville Land Company chief executive Chris Aiken said it would be great to have the ferry service up and running by the time the new primary school opens for the 2013 school year.
‘Working families moving into the area for schooling can know they have an easy commute down the harbour to the CBD as an option,” said Mr Aiken.
Brian Perry Civil has been appointed to construct the new ferry wharf at The Landing, the site where Catalina flying boats once graced the harbour and foreshore. Construction is scheduled to start next week and be completed before Christmas, to support ferry services to the CBD starting early in the new year.
“A ferry service will add to Hobsonville Point’s easy connection with Auckland,” said Mr Aiken, “complementing our proximity to the north western motorway, and regular bus services.”
The new wharf would replace the old wharf structure at The Landing and become a vital public amenity in its own right, said Mr Aiken.
Designed by Architectus, the wharf will be a significant structure featuring a large public deck where people can sit and enjoy the harbour and stunning views. The wharf will have a roof and side panels to provide protection from the weather.
Stories of Hobsonville Point will be told visually on a series of panels. The wharf’s keynote feature will be a sculpture by Virginia King inspired by the shape of traditional eel traps, or Hinaki. The work is conceived as a symbol of protection of the waters of the Upper Waitemata Harbour.
Hobsonville Land Company is contributing to the cost of the project that will create waterfront amenity for Hobsonville Point residents and is also investing in new roads and a park and ride facility to support the ferry service. A new road under construction will enable buses serving the peninsula to drive down to The Landing to connect to the ferry.
And Beach Haven:
Auckland Transport yesterday decided to revise its budget so ferries can call at Beach Haven in conjunction with a new service early next year between Hobsonville and the city centre…
…But it was only yesterday, after strong lobbying from the Kaipatiki Local Board, that Auckland Transport decided to spend about $1.35 million this financial year to rescue a Beach Haven service from the outer reaches of its long-term fundingplan.
That would provide a two-stage gangway with a canopy and “runway” lighting to a floating pontoon, supported by guiding piles, the organisation said last night.
Board member Richard Hills welcomed the decision as exciting and logical, saying the new service would have a large catchment of passengers reaching across the Kaipatiki Bridge to Glenfield and beyond, taking cars off the heavily congested commuter route down Onewa Rd to the motorway.
Parking arrangements have yet to be made, and Auckland Transport board member Mike Williams told his colleagues that feeder buses would be needed to carry passengers to and from an upgraded Beach Haven wharf.
Although a Beach Haven ferry service has been discussed for years, the Kaipatiki board was dismayed to find in June that it was unlikely to start before 2017 under Auckland Transport’s long-term plan.
The services should be relatively popular, as long as they can connect logically with ways to get to the terminals – especially in the form of feeder bus services. Which in turn makes sorting out integrated ticketing particularly necessary.
Haven’t they tried to do a ferry from beachhaven before and it failed for lack of patronage. I am not sure if it was cost or demographics (ie. not enough downtown city workers). Plus Beachhaven is already well serviced by buses to the city that take about 30ish minutes in rushhour. The walk is longer for uni students who can get a direct bus to uni.
How long will a ferry take and how much will it cost in comparison to a bus?
Hobsonville is further by road so assume it makes more sense, especially since it isn’t already serviced as well by other public transport.
I don’t think it has ever been tried before, the project has been cancelled and mothballed a few times already, but never actually run.
The Beachhaven wharf to Victoria St West bus is currently timetabled at 50 minutes, not 30. The beachhaven ferry would be almost exactly the same length as the westpark ferry, that takes 35 minutes.
An interesting possibility would be if the Hobsonville Point plans take off. Then Hobsonville Point would be the most accessible shopping/employment district for Beachhaven!
I might have been a bit off with the timing. I am in Birkenhead and use to do 30 door to door when I worked in the CBD so assumed it wasn’t much longer. I guess there must be a lot of stop in between which makes it 20 minutes slower for what is only 5 minutes of driving.
The issue is they will no doubt going provide a big subsidy to the ferry co, plus a big subsidy to the feeder buses for a service which is no doubt expensive to run. Sure that is what AT is meant to do but there is an existing service which is fully commercial (ie. no subsidy required) and has been providing that service as required since the harbour bridge opened. Lets face it, before the Bridge, a Ferry service use to run so a Ferry hasn’t been economically viable since the 1950′s.
The only reason I see this making sense is the marginal cost is minimal as the ferry will be going past anyway on the way from Hobsonville. However, it will make that journey slower making the ferry trip less desirable for those at Hobsonville who the service is really targeted at.
Auckland ferry subsidies are some of the lowest anywhere (half those of Brisbane, a SEVENTH of those in Sydney), so I am not going to be worrying too much about gold-plating.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/transport/news/article.cfm?c_id=97&objectid=10494966
That subsidy seems low. But I assume it is because Ferrys operate mainly/only at peak hour (except for Devenport??) when most bus services would operate on a commercial basis.
There’s two things going on in Auckland. The two busiest ferries (Devonport and Waiheke), the two that make a lot of sense due to geography, are run as fully commercial services. So they carry plenty of passengers with zero subsidy. All the other ferries are small vessel niche markets subsidised up the wazoo. Add them together and you get a low subsidy per boarding across the network, but only because the commercial services carry the lions share of trips.
This new service is likely to fall into the wazoo category. Take a look at the likes of Sydney and they are in a similar boat (ahem), the Manly service would pay its own way but everything else is little niche runs that are heavily subsidised. The only difference between here and there is they have much more of the passenger boardings across 36 (by my count) expensive to service little local wharves, while we stick mostly to the two core services.
The same would be true for the bus subsidies the ferries are compared to in the article, wouldn’t it? So the comparison remains positive in terms of total subsidies. It would also appear that the comparison to the Sydney ferries (barring other data) seems positive?
Also, I am surprised that you are so concerned about subsidising some less-capitalistically-viable services. Sure, we don’t want to subsidise INEFFICIENT (i.e. unpopular) services – but a service can be very useful to society and worth the money, even though it won’t work in a capitalist system. For example, the user of a ferry expected to pay ALL the costs is not reimbursed for putting less stress on the road network. So society can reimburse him by subsidising his fare a bit.
Oh I’m not suggesting that a subsidised service is a bad idea, or that we should only run commercial services.
Just pointing out that we can’t expect new ferries in Auckland to be low/no subsidy because the average across the network is low subsidy. The comparison of the cost effectiveness of our ferries compared to Sydney seems to be used as a justification for adding more ferries, when in reality any new ferry in Auckland would be heavily subsidised. Again not saying subsidy is a bad idea, but we can’t decide to throw ferries at Te Atatu and Browns Bay and wherever willy nilly because they would have to come at the expense of something else in the operating budget.
Like the train that comes nowhere near us Nick?
And no busway for 20 – 25 years.
Exactly – is this the best use of a subsidy when they are already serviced (and more money is being spent on a westbound T3 on Onewa to further improve the trip.
However, on the basis the a ferry from Hobsonville to CBD costs $X and only a little bit more for Beachhaven, the extra amount AT will be spending will be small.
Not sure what you mean there Bryce, could you elaborate?
Te Atatu is pretty much cut off, the bus services are, well, shit to say the least and the nearest train station heading into the CBD (Avondale) is almost in town anyway. Considering AT have left any thought of a busway until 25 years away (from the Long Term Plan) isn’t a ferry justified for those who don’t want to spend their time in rush hour traffic? Or, do you share AT and NZTA’s ideas that the upgraded motorway and bus shoulder lanes (no going around on-ramps) will be ok?
….and trains are getting a bucket load spent on them and I see plans are in place to extend the busway up to Orewa (more subsidies). At least ferries don’t need road or track maintenance, nor tunnels. So, as far as I can see there are susidies (some very, very large) in place over pretty much any PT service you can name.
Buses pay road users on their mileage so the road upgrades are not a subsidy to the buses, they are paid for.
I cant say the same for trains.
But they get subsidies of which some presumably goes towards running costs like….RUC?
Yes they get subsidies, but in your post at 11.13, you suggest that road upgrades and T3 etc are a further subsidy on top of the subsidy provided directly by AT.
Building a bus /T3 lane would be a subsidy wouldn’t it or at the very least a PT spend by AT. A T3 lane wouldn’t be considered maintenance.
Actually I’m wrong. It would be a capital cost like building a ferry building
Te Atatu is going to get a very good frequent all day bus service under the new network, via the proposed bus lanes on SH16 and the existing ones on Great Nth Rd. That will be more use to locals (Pick up across Te Atatu and access several places, not just wharf to wharf), faster than a ferry to downtown, and a lot cheaper to operate. In particular the bus could be very regular and frequent. A ferry would be lucky to be hourly, more like just a couple of runs in each peak.
I’ll believe it when I see it Nick
. The current services are rubbish, well worse than rubbish really. I tried to use them on weekends but gave up. Irregular and slow. If I could ride my bike to a station near the motorway, lock up my bike and hop on an express bus I’d be happy.
The mentioned ferry service for Te Atatu is only proposed for peak times and to use vessels like the small yellow ferries. I don’t have the figures but the estimates for any operating subsidies, over and above building a terminal, were pretty low (low running costs with not using a big boat).
Nick R, do you have a link to any info about the new network changes for Te Atatu? I’m in the position of travelling against the peak flows of traffic CBD to Te Atatu and the service is just dismal – including wait time because it’s so unreliable, a journey takes 3 times what it does by car.
Cant reply to your post below so will comment on this one on why I am concerned on subsidising.
First off, Hobsonville makes sense – growth area they are trying to promote and I assume isn’t currently linked to public transport and the trip will be significantly quicker.
Just because Beachhaven is only 400m away does not mean it necessarily makes sense as a tack on. Why not tack on Island Bay instead as it is on the way too. Time savings for the two would be similar so which would have the biggest catchment. Both are very close to the existing bus route so their are options for both already.
Is there another area that isn’t currently served well that would be better as a tack on – other Greenheith, herald Island
The marginal cost wont be that much in theory so not overly concerned but just because something is nice to have, doesn’t mean it should be funded. Personally I would like a feeder bus in my area to connect me to the regular buses from Highbury but unfortunately the demographics don’t support it.
Island Bay and Herald Island are both very small catchments, with limited ability to provide good bus connections or significant park n ride. Just take a look at them both on Google Maps, they are effectively little islands with a small number of houses on each. In comparison Beachhaven has a larger direct catchment but more importantly and already has the bus terminus provision and bus services in place.
Island Bay would be an easy stop on the Hobsonville run, Herald Island and Greenhithe would require substantial extra running.
IIRC Greenhithe was written off because they only suitable place for the wharf was in private ownership (a boat builders), had very limited walk catchment (you have to walk almost a km up Rame Rd to get to Greenhithe proper) and had no opportunity to build bus facilities or park n ride except on the boat builders land. Furthermore the old report suggested that once the Busway was operational it would be faster for buses to travel along SH18 to the busway and into town, than to take the ferry. That’s probably true, if Greenhithe actually got that sort of bus service.
Island Bays catchment would be the same as Beachhaven if you exclude bus feeders and has some parking.
Note: I am not advocating either. I assume work has been done to confirm the uptake from Beachhaven will be greater?
Beachhaven is a good 6km further out from BIrkenhead, the distances are deceptive. Considering a street bus is lucky to achieve 20km/h in service an extra 20mins is about right.
The Hobsonville and Beachhaven wharves are only 400m apart: not really a detour at all, just the additional time for the stop. Probably very worth it in my opinion.
I have been thinking about the time discrepancy and the issue is we are not comparing apples with apples – and not even Ferries with Buses.
The Ferry from Beachhaven will be in effect an express service. Not only that, but it also likely to be less partronised (ie. everyone will get a seat).
If a 3/4 full bus was to run direct from Beachhaven shops (a larger catchment that the wharf) to Britomart, it would probably take closer to the 30min mark than the 50 min mark.
Went to a presentation in Te Atatu last week about the ferry service that was proposed in 2006 for there. 6 ferry services were proposed for Auckland and Te Atatu was 4th on the list for next to get a ferry service. Beachhaven and Hobsonville were below in priority. Anybody know why this changed?
Hobsonville development.
Yip. Hobsonville Point is the poster child for intensification in Auckland so is going to get a bunch of resources thrown at it. Te Atatu is a little blue collar suburb that people pass by. Heck, AT (not NZTA) do not even have a NW busway planned for at least 20 years. Drury is getting more attention. NZTA think enhance shoulder lanes are going to be fine until then. So no express buses or stations near the motorway so 45 minute bus rides into town off peak. I can always catch a bus to Henderson to get on a train (as per the LT plan). I think I’ll be using my car still.
As for a ferry, Phil Twyford and the Henderson board are pushing for a ferry service for the Te Atatu area.
We are getting a shiny new motorway rebuild though so really us Te Atatu residents should be quiet
.
Sorry RHarris but Beachhaven was No.1 priority on that list.
Hobsonville and Te Atatu were high priorities, both contingent on intensive development of the catchment of the proposed wharf sites. What has changed is that the Hobsonville Point development has gone ahead, while the Te Atatu reserve remains empty grass.
The real issue is that all these sites and others proposed (Island Bay, Greenhithe, Herald Island) really lack any sort of catchment to justify more than one or two return trips a day. On a long run like that, thats a huge investment in vehicles for very minimal return. I think they answer is probably to string them together on one run, trading travel time for operating efficiency.
And long may the Te Atatu reserve remain that way (other than for a bus / ferry terminal). Hobsonville Point has it’s fair share of beach front grass as well – a 9 hectare reserve being one.
Hobsonville Point has a new town centre with retail, jobs and in particular lots of high density housing fronting directly onto the ferry wharf, the reserve is off away from the ferry. See here: http://www.hobsonvillepoint.co.nz/vision/masterplan/
The Te Atatu bus is timetabled at 35 minutes to Britomart, about the same as ferry would be. That time will drop with the new SH16 bus lanes.
I’m not sure how you could justify a ferry when it would be slower than existing PT option, and you don’t want any transit oriented development around the terminal like at Hobsonville.
These bus lanes are already there (well were until they started the test bed on the causeway). I know the replacements are going to be better but without bypassing interchanges how is it going to be faster? As far as services go, the term ‘service’ is at the moment used in a fraudulent manner. I’ll believe it when I see it. I have tried to use buses from here on weekends and just gave up and drove. Frequent express buses (like on the Northern busway) and a station would see me ride to the station and just hop on the next bus.
Te Atatu has some high density housing and it could have a lot more if council would relax some of their rules. The guy across the road had to put a 2nd house on as a ‘minor dwelling’ because he didn’t have the required 450 sq/m land available and the resource consent process would have rendered it a financial disaster.
It is a pity that interchange bypass’s have not been included in the great Western Ring motorway plans. Imagine the difference that alone would make to journey times from Kumeu or Westgate.
Rumor is that Te Atatu interchange’s design is getting another design revamp, with Council and NZTA huddling over options. Could be a good change, could be a f**t in a bag with 5m more bus lane on the off-ramp. We will see.
There was a service to Beach Haven that stopped in about 2004 but it was for reasons of quality and cost – privately run so expensive and leaving from a pretty sketchy old wharf with no shelter. I’m told you had to pre-buy tickets for a partic sailing, so little spontaneity or flexibility. In this scenario the real driver is Hobsonville, with Beach Haven a happy add on. Since the two suburbs are directly across the water from each other, it makes sense to have them connected by the same service..
Ferry in Te Atatu would be cool. Great way to destress on your travel to work.
Can anyone point me to ANY historic data sources about the old port plans for Te Atatu? I have always heard about it, but could never find anything. Big ship port, not ferries.
Am contemplating a possible move well out west (Whenuapai/Hobsonville are) so I’ll be watching this with interest. I’d considered forking out for an electric bike to whizz in down the Northwestern cycleway – it may be a bit too far for an unassisted bike commute – but the regular bike + a ferry trip could be a nice way to start and end the working day… as long as the price is not astronomical.
In a letter to the Herald some weeks ago I suggested Hobsonville should be a loop service connecting Birkenhead, Beach Haven, Hobsonville, West Harbour and Te Atatu. Ferries should operate clockwise and anticlockwise so you could catch the service rotating in the quickest direction for your trip e.g. Beach Haven to Te Atatu you would take the anti clockwise service. Just operating to Hobsonville is giving them an express service which would have to be subsidised. I question the need for the West Harbour service once the new one starts the berths are so close??
It must be remembered most commuters do not go to the central city and the above suggestion would provide a service that connects places difficult to access even by car e.g. Beach Haven to Te Atatu particularly if a shuttle bus connected the ferries to Henderson Station.
Common sense does not feature greatly in our transport planners minds.
Richard, that would be a hugely expensive service that would serve very few people. Of your stops there is not a single significant employment destination among them. Where exactly is the commuter demand you are trying to service?
While it is true that most commuters do not go to the central city, it is also true that more commuters go to the central city than any other place. Take the likes of Beach Haven commuters, far more of them will be going to the city than to Birkenhead wharf, Hobsonville, West Harbour and Te Atatu put together. How many commuters are there from Te Atatu to West Harbour for example? You’d be lucky to fill a sports car, let alone keep a ferry service going. There are about 100,000 jobs in the central city, plus two universities and the greatest concentration of services, entertainment and retailing in the country. That is why ferries go there.
Plus your suggested loop is 28km around. You would need four ferries working constantly just to provide an hourly service in both directions. A vaguely useful half hourly service would take seven or eight, more than the rest of the ferry network put together. And for what, to shuttle a handful of people around between a couple of seaside suburbs? I can think of much better transit routes to waste money on than that.
If a near useless and hugely expensive ferry loop is ‘common sense’, then I’m glad the planners don’t have any!
Richard Horner – I would be careful with proposing an Auckland inner harbour ferry link, I foresee nothing but the Herald dining out on aggrieved yachties whose moorings are in the way of the route designation, plus it might make NZTA and the responsible ministers’ heads simultaneously explode
We could make it a ferry route of national significance – FONS (maybe with car ferries?). Or, if your predisposition is to the other end of the spectrum, we could maybe build canal tunnels to avoid those yachties? City Harbour Loop (CHL) anyone?
Hey Nick, it won’t let me reply above but I would love to see a good bus service around Te Atatu as the current service is rubbish, actually, worse than rubbish. I have tried getting buses on a couple of occasions at weekends but have given up. I would be happy with genuine express buses running along NW motorway at very regular intervals and a station near the interchange where I could lock my bike up.
The proposed ferry idea was to use the small yellow type of ferry and only to operate at peak times. The suggested operating subsidies were pretty low from memory (smaller boat + full = more efficient).
I’m curious to know which company will run the new service – but couldn’t see any reference to that in the announcment. Anybody know?
I guess it will go on tender.
Streets down by the wharf such as Gazelle Avenue and Rambler Cres have already rocketed in value so a Ferry Service will add more value. Time to buy a house down there, preferably with off street parking !!
Everyone knows a Ferry at B.H is a good idea and long overdue. Anything to eleviate the Onewa Road problem each morning.They should have done it years ago.
I agree with Sam. Soon or later, the Beach Haven wharf plan has to be done. We can’t depend too much on road transport. Reduce the traffic, and consider the parking fee in city is very expensive. In addition, bus service is unreliable when the union start negotiating with the bus company to increase the pay.
The important thing is the ferry company who run the service has to be very smart, know what to do in this situation.